tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post1988230296645949917..comments2024-03-23T08:21:07.075-07:00Comments on Points of Light: 5th Edition: Keepers, Wants, Don't Wants (Part 1?)David Guyllhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16299128722345607123noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post-89797676659994479642012-01-12T08:13:51.934-08:002012-01-12T08:13:51.934-08:00@David's piece: I can easily identify with alm...@David's piece: I can easily identify with almost every point you make, especially the monster and NPC stuff. Hated that crap in 3E. Furthermore, I love your blog, keep up the good work!<br /><br />While I am looking forward to see what they'll come up with this "edition for everyone" angle, it's feeling like an elongated death spasm already. No, I do not consider myself a doomsayer. People have been declaring DnD or Pen (or Paper RPG's in general, for that matter) going the way of the dodo for years now, and it's still going strong as people keep playing the game. Though I don't think it'll happen overnight, this kinda spells "not good" to me. I can see where Wizards is coming from with wanting to please everyone (not to mention Hasbro, who I can already hear sharpening their talons), but the writing on the wall to me is the very narrow timeframe that's between the release of each of the last editions. In 2000 we had 3rd Edition, followed shortly by 3.5. No big deal, a small update! WotC even released a summary of the updated rules for free. You didn't *have* to buy 3.5 if you already had 3.0. But many people did so anyway, out of sheer confidence in the brand and the superfun they were having. 8 (or 5, depending on your viewpoint), years later 4E sets in. I loved it pretty much from the getgo. <br /><br />Before 3E, people had been playing AD&D for almost a decade, with 2nd Edition released in 1996. But, at least with each of the past iterations, players have been able to properly sink their teeth in for a while and come to terms with the pros and cons of edition x or y... And hey, after all, the system is there to support the game. It's about fun and roleplay. But now, it feels like we've barely scratched the surface of 4E. I'm not talking about "being forced to buy yet *another* set of Core Rulebooks". I'll keep playing 4E for as long as I can. I even use my 3.5 Eberron collection much more than my 4E ones. Hell, ever since 4E was announced, we knew that eventually a 5th edition would make its appearance sooner or later. But I'm sure nobody hoped that it would be this sooner. I was planning on buying stuff like Heroes of the Feywild, my first purchase of a WotC book in a looong time. Up untill now, I've been relying on DDI for all my DnD needs. But I'm glad I didn't. I can't help but think I would feel cheated somehow if I'd got home with my shiny new book to explore and then all of a sudden Wizards goes GOOD NEWS EVERYONE! In short, it feels like the big cheeses at Hasbro see the sales stumble after a while and demand a new, better selling product. But if their target audience already owns either the Core 4E and/or the Essentials line of products, how do they expect that that everyon will just as nicely switch over to a brand spanking new edition FOR EVERYONE? It's as if Hasbro presented Wizards with an ultimatum of sorts. Better make a game with a steady cashflow or we'll kill it off. Seeing as they already have a paying online service, this worries me more than just a bit. I hope I'm wrong, and would gladly get feedback from anyone with perhaps more insight in this thing?Maarten Roexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16186439360258667271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post-72267797502518600162012-01-12T07:31:34.518-08:002012-01-12T07:31:34.518-08:00Yeah checking out Exalted, Death Watch/Black Crusa...Yeah checking out Exalted, Death Watch/Black Crusade, and Dresden Files have given me some ideas that I wish would have been utilized in D&D.<br /><br />The no minis thing is not difficult to houserule, but I agree that having even an optional set of rules to give you ideas on how to resolve "grid-effects" like forced movement or speed boosts would have been nice. Generally I am not a fan of having to stop the game to roll initiative and/or draw a map, as it tends to break tension or sense of urgency.David Guyllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16299128722345607123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post-89946775906651851562012-01-12T06:59:45.328-08:002012-01-12T06:59:45.328-08:00@David: The Burning Wheel skill system is fairly c...@David: The Burning Wheel skill system is fairly close to the one used in Mouse Guard. At one point, you could download the first few chapters of Burning Wheel Gold (the most recent edition) directly from BWHQ, but I'm not sure if they still have them posted. If you're a rules geek, it's worth reading them just to see what a different perspective brings to the game.<br /><br />I'd like to see an optional "no-minis" ruleset included in 5th edition. I'd use it for "on-the-fly" encounters or battles with mooks. Something that could get resolved really quickly without having to draw a map or break out the dungeon tiles would be a nice addition.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02001763786534985344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post-15306712763739342362012-01-11T21:42:06.479-08:002012-01-11T21:42:06.479-08:00I really want to just reply with a "lol WoW&q...I really want to just reply with a "lol WoW" quip, because that accusation does not--and never has--made sense. It sounds like a knee-jerk statement thrown out there in order to, I dunno, make 4th Edition (and I guess also 3rd Edition) seem like "Not-D&D", or a RPG or whatever.<br /><br />Yeah, 4E assumes minis (like basically every other edition), but that doesn't mean that it is WoW (which also does not use minis) or a wargame. Maybe it is the way I have always played; social interaction, puzzles, and exploration don't use minis. I break them out when combat breaks out.<br /><br />Also there ARE people that have worked ways to run 4E mini-less using mechanics from Dresden Files/Exalted, so while I won't say that minis are not heavily encouraged , they are not required, and I have no idea how their existence is any correlation between WoW.<br /><br />That being said, I have ran miniless combat encounters (one of the new DMs ran an entirely miniless session for his first game) and it doesn't really bug anyone except for probably the super-tactically minded.David Guyllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16299128722345607123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post-51034087529536492762012-01-11T21:41:15.209-08:002012-01-11T21:41:15.209-08:00I agree with Geek Ken about the weak low level cha...I agree with Geek Ken about the weak low level characters in earlier versions of D&D. I think 4e did many things well. I do hope they retain the heroic heroes in 5th ed. If they go back to weak ass characters who can be killed by a housecat from lvl 1-3 (or higher if your a mage) ... that would be tragic.The Lord of Excesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12844701226225155792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post-19014416634753791402012-01-11T21:33:51.931-08:002012-01-11T21:33:51.931-08:00I know I'm about to say something very heretic...I know I'm about to say something very heretical, and likely be in the ultra minority ... but here goes ... <br /><br />DO NOT WANT: A grid based game. There ... I said it. I hate 3.0-4e era gird based stuff. I'm saying this as someone who has played DOZENS and DOZENS of full campaigns of 3.0-4e era D&D. My gaming groups have played the living crap out of 3.0-4e era D&D. Hell with 4e we had 3 games going for a brief period summer before last. I've legitimately leveled a character from 1-20 in 4e. All that said ... I hate grid based D&D. I am a mini wargamer and for me ... if I want miniature wargaming ... I'll play a damn mini wargame!! I'll go play Descent or something if I just want to push minis around.<br /><br />I can not with a straight face ... deny ... that 3.0-4e era D&D is really anything more than pen and paper WoW. Yes it can be fun, fun as hell actually ... but unless 5th ed makes use of the grid "optional" I'm really likely to retire from newer versions of D&D and just join the OSR guys, or just go with Burning Wheel or something. Before anyone says you don't have to use the grid in 3.0-4e era D&D ... I call 100% BS ... sure you don't have to but then your literally hand waiving 3/5ths of the rules. Been there done that ... tried and tried ... doesn't work well at all, to such an extent you just go "why the hell don't I just use 2nd ed or something." <br /><br />For me I'd love to see a game more akin to say Green Ronin's Dragon Age, but fully D&Dized. I'd love to see them work out rules to make the grid an option for groups that really want that ... but I hope they build in something into the rules that allow people to fully opt out and still be playing the game.The Lord of Excesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12844701226225155792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post-38964803075974285552012-01-11T07:37:27.923-08:002012-01-11T07:37:27.923-08:00@Grumpy Celt: I know some people dislike multiclas...@Grumpy Celt: I know some people dislike multiclassing as is, and in fact people in my group did not like having to burn multiple feats to be able to swap everything. That is something I would like to see go, though I could also see players requiring a minimum ability score and trained skill to do it; for example, a fighter could snag wizard spells if he has training in Arcana and an Intelligence of 13.<br /><br />@Stash: My problem with rolling stats is that, especially in 3rd and 4th Edition where they matter sooo much more, is that it can restrict what players can do, or make them mechanically worse than another character. I do not have a problem with two fighters deliberately making their own choices, but when it comes to the luck of the draw? Again, I would rather approach this like Gamma World, where the stats you need get pegged at a certain level and you roll for everything else. Ensures that you can do what you need to do, but could also open up some other opportunities (such as a fighter with an insanely high Charisma or a wizard with a really high Strength).<br /><br />@Paul: I am not familiar with Burning Wheel, though I do have Mouse Guard. If that is in there I'll have to give it a look. I think skill challenges CAN work, they just need to avoid giving one rigid set of conditions for every possible scenario. Like, the win-lose conditions for a chase scene probably should not be the same as those for solving a puzzle, tracking goblins back to their camp, negotiating passage across a bridge with a troll, or finding your way out of the Feywild after becoming stranded.<br /><br />@Hyperion: I am curious as to what part came across as such.David Guyllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16299128722345607123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post-15397363970259761142012-01-11T06:29:58.541-08:002012-01-11T06:29:58.541-08:00Is this meant to be a sarcastic post?Is this meant to be a sarcastic post?Hyperionhttp://www.penandpapergames.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post-61954527570003716312012-01-11T05:30:53.609-08:002012-01-11T05:30:53.609-08:00Skill Challenges, IMO, need to be dropped complete...Skill Challenges, IMO, need to be dropped completely. I've never run one that felt organic in play. I'd greatly prefer to see something along the lines of Burning Wheel's Task & Intent system, but I have a feeling that WotC has something more traditional in mind.<br /><br />The one thing that this new edition must absolutely keep is the simple design of new material - monsters, especially, but also traps, NPCs, and magic items. I will not go back to a system where it takes me several hours to design a new monster or NPC antagonist.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02001763786534985344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post-18005972287816832722012-01-11T02:04:08.092-08:002012-01-11T02:04:08.092-08:00Great article tho - love the points made, and I ap...Great article tho - love the points made, and I appreciate the effort of the summation. Especially because I personally don't have time to parse through countless pages of "OMG" in the various forums.Stash Ravenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01479391428149433483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post-22446003624652484732012-01-11T02:00:49.643-08:002012-01-11T02:00:49.643-08:00I know how you feel about rolling abilities - and ...I know how you feel about rolling abilities - and for the most part, I feel the same way. What I did back in 2nd edition was to augment it to fix the part you dislike, while still giving that "flavor" and anticipation that rolling provides. I can personally say that at least the 7 in my group REALLY like it. It's pretty simple when you see it, and for the most part ensures you don't get gimped (if anything you are probably going to be a little over powered, but hell - you are a hero!) <br /><br />Short version: Roll 4d6 six times, re-rolling 1's and 2's dropping the lowest die for each sum - assign them where you want. If I wanted even more attribute based power for the PCs I would let them do that seven times, dropping the lowest. If for some freaky reason the average of the six scores was < 12 then I would give them the choice of doing it again - but they had to keep the new result. <br /><br />This opened up new ideas for them, expanded on their existing ideas, etc... No matter what the "official" rules state - I know my players will revolt from any form of a point buy system or even worse in their minds - a standard array of basically predetermined allocation.Stash Ravenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01479391428149433483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post-48441204466290981372012-01-11T00:33:47.587-08:002012-01-11T00:33:47.587-08:00I disagree with you about the multi-classing issue...I disagree with you about the multi-classing issue. That is one thing I disliked about 4E. <br /><br />But WotC will do what WotC wants to do.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00801468265072232351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post-10421620269295636402012-01-10T20:53:29.119-08:002012-01-10T20:53:29.119-08:00I stopped playing D&D after high school for ab...I stopped playing D&D after high school for about 20 years. In college I moved on to other RPGs for a bit. I've been continually gaming since being a kid but moved on to board games and miniature wargames. I jumped back into a 3.5 game a few years back and all the bad stuff I remembered about AD&D was still there. Fire and forget magic. Fighters that made the same attack over and over. 3.5 editions later and core fundamentals of the game hadn't changed in 30+ years. I guess my perspective is different as I walked away from the game for so long and was playing other fun, interactive games.<br /><br />4E is a great iteration of D&D. It just shed all the archaic crap of past editions and finally made a game where players could play heroes, not some commoner with a sword, fearful of every goblin until 3rd level. I could never understand why people clung to these bad ideas for decades thinking they are great features of D&D. 4E is not perfect. It has it's own issues. But WotC made a great game with 4E.Geek Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16482331250913593003noreply@blogger.com