tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post321213053076476394..comments2024-03-23T08:21:07.075-07:00Comments on Points of Light: Dungeon World: Dealing With Dealing DamageDavid Guyllhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16299128722345607123noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post-14548100571803050222016-03-29T17:09:13.122-07:002016-03-29T17:09:13.122-07:00"It is these fictions that we have to conside..."It is these fictions that we have to consider."<br /><br />Different GMs will not interpret a thing the same way. This is the problem with the 16-hit point dragon article: the GM arbitrarily ramped up everything.<br /><br />"Now it may not seem fair but keeping with the fiction is more than fair."<br /><br />It's arbitrary: the difficulty mostly stems from how the GM chooses to interpret special abilities and moves (both monsters moves, whether other moves can even be used, and soft/hard results).<br /><br />"It is a part of the narrative. It is the point of the system. Be a fan of the players and their creativity."<br /><br />So, do I tell the fighter that his sword arbitrarily cannot harm the dragon despite having a damage of something like 1d10+2 piercing+messy+forceful (more if he's 2nd-level or higher), or do I "be a fan" and let the highly destructive weapon work?<br /><br />You realize that a halfling fighter with DEX +3 (not unreasonable if you wanna use a precise weapon) has a +4 to avoid the dragon's attacks, making it very easy to get in close and butcher it, right? Assuming the players hear of the dragon, they can always use Bolster in order to gain some floating +1s, too.<br /><br />"Stone Golem? Nope a metal sword is only going to chip away a bit at it. A hammer might hurt it. Just like arrows on a skeleton is just plain silly. Don't even roll for volley, just describe how the arrow bounces off of bones or slides perfectly into a heart shot, with no heart. What are you going to do NOW? Ah, you have sling stones, ok. Volley: damaged a leg, it goes down but hobbles forward (yes you rolled damage and won but didn't kill it outright)or Good Damage, enough to kill it: Headshot smashing the gem or rune that keeps it animated. Now it's just bones."<br /><br />Why can't the arrow volley just destroy the gem or rune that keeps it animated? I'd let a player try that out, but you wouldn't, which again brings me to the DW issue of lots of GM arbitration.David Guyllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16299128722345607123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post-25377360970051410712016-03-29T17:08:47.289-07:002016-03-29T17:08:47.289-07:00"If it is a Dragon (yes even the 16 hp one)....."If it is a Dragon (yes even the 16 hp one)..."<br /><br />Which, going by the book, would actually have at least 20, but prolly 24 with the uncanny endurance option.<br /><br />"...then it is unlikely that it will be hurt by a PC. It's armor is simply too tough, it has range and flexibility on the PC."<br /><br />5 armor is something a fighter can reasonably get around with the 2 piercing and/or +x damage special weapon features. With a few levels this is even easier thanks to the ability to pick MORE special weapon features and/or damage bonuses...unless you are referring to the GM being able to just arbitrarily declare that you just cannot hurt the dragon at all.<br /><br />"Tactics would be needed to hurt the Dragon, or a weapon of magic that is capable of damaging it, Dragonbane Spear or a BlackIron Balitista Bolt and just the right spot."<br /><br />This depends entirely on the GM.<br /><br />Some GMs might say that a dagger won't be able to penetrate a dragon's scales, but a sword or axe can (so long as it deals enough damage to get through the dragon's Armor, at any rate). Note that the book specifically mentions that getting at the dragon's soft underbelly could trigger hack and slash.<br /><br />"Or some other effect. This is what is meant by not all attack actions will trigger a hack and slash. You need to consider what will be effective. Shear size and armor and creature speed would demand a fiction that is incredible."<br /><br />I'm well aware of how Hack and Slash works, but the "fiction" required to do things is, again, ultimately up to the GM.<br /><br />The official example of the book is something that can be attained with a simple Defy Danger roll, which is especially easy to do for a fighter with a good DEX and/or halfling race (could also be a halfing fighter with a high DEX and precise weapon).<br /><br />"Keep the Fiction."<br /><br />I find this statement ironic given that Dungeon World doesn't even "keep the Fiction". It's like it was written with the mantra of "do as we say, not as we do".<br /><br />"ow if the Players come up with a cleaver plan to lure the Dragon out of the cave, drop down on top of it, they may have a chance of dealing damage once."<br /><br />Agaaain...depends on the GM.<br /><br />Saying that IF they do this plan they MAY deal damage once sounds like you're just piling on artificial difficulty in order to make the dragon more difficult than the numbers give it any right to be. This is why I prefer D&D: dragons are dangerous enough without the DM having to resort to arbitrarily interpreting moves a certain way.<br /><br />I mean, even if I agreed that no mundane weapon can piece its scales, what about a fighter's weapon? What about a fighter's weapon with 2 piercing, messy, and forceful? What about a weapon enchanted with the bard's Arcane Art and/or the cleric's Magic Weapon spell? David Guyllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16299128722345607123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post-81105319712682175662016-03-28T12:05:00.832-07:002016-03-28T12:05:00.832-07:00Something that bears considering.
Can the creatu...Something that bears considering. <br />Can the creature be hurt by the PCs?<br /><br />If it is a Dragon (yes even the 16 hp one) then it is unlikely that it will be hurt by a PC. It's armor is simply too tough, it has range and flexibility on the PC. So they rush in and attack, Roll Defy Danger: 10+ you succeed in avoiding a wing swipe or claw swipe and dodge out of the way in the nick of time. 9-7: You manage to get away but choose one: Dragon bites Sword in half, Take Damage from Dragon, Get trapped by the Dragon in your hasty attempt, he may eat you or talk to you while you are trapped. Hope you have friends. 6- well you get to have damage and knocked across the room, or some other difficulty, like Damage and melted sword from fire breath. <br /><br />Tactics would be needed to hurt the Dragon, or a weapon of magic that is capable of damaging it, Dragonbane Spear or a BlackIron Balitista Bolt and just the right spot. Or some other effect. This is what is meant by not all attack actions will trigger a hack and slash. You need to consider what will be effective. Shear size and armor and creature speed would demand a fiction that is incredible. Keep the Fiction. Now if the Players come up with a cleaver plan to lure the Dragon out of the cave, drop down on top of it, they may have a chance of dealing damage once. It is these fictions that we have to consider. Now it may not seem fair but keeping with the fiction is more than fair. It is a part of the narrative. It is the point of the system. Be a fan of the players and their creativity.<br /><br />Stone Golem? Nope a metal sword is only going to chip away a bit at it. A hammer might hurt it. Just like arrows on a skeleton is just plain silly. Don't even roll for volley, just describe how the arrow bounces off of bones or slides perfectly into a heart shot, with no heart. What are you going to do NOW? Ah, you have sling stones, ok. Volley: damaged a leg, it goes down but hobbles forward (yes you rolled damage and won but didn't kill it outright)or Good Damage, enough to kill it: Headshot smashing the gem or rune that keeps it animated. Now it's just bones.<br /><br />This is the take away that I get from the book. Creativity, going with the fiction like in a book, and embracing that there are different ways of doing things.<br /><br />My favorite example was when I got asked if a player could taunt a Dire Bat to get it to smash into a wall. Yes, I love it. He rolled a Roll+Cha. Got 10+, I had him roll his damage and made it dazed and available to attack for 1 action of stun. A brilliant move, It made the creature accessible to be hit. As opposed to doing it's flybys and claw swipe attacks on a dive. Or having the Bat pick up the smaller PC and dropping him: Roll creatures damage for the fall because they failed their Defy Danger roll to get out of the way. It's not all Hack and Slash.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09062994872133429933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post-35562111201551520382015-09-26T10:10:17.903-07:002015-09-26T10:10:17.903-07:00@John: I initially stuck by the monster-building g...@John: I initially stuck by the monster-building guidelines, because I generally assume that the person making the game did certain things for a reason. Dunno about this case: going by the book can result in some unexpectedly frustrating/underwhelming monsters.<br /><br />I mention earlier editions of D&D and lone monsters, because Dungeon World is even WORSE since they have WAAAY less hit points. I can also see some monsters living alone, like an ogre in a cave, owlbear, or dragon. It's just a shame that, by the book, they go down so easily.<br /><br />I do agree that in many cases, they won't be alone, especially if they're smart. Which is why, again, I think the solitary tag was a bad idea: a base of 12 HP just isn't enough to get by on, especially on your lonesome.David Guyllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16299128722345607123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post-34497086908254903672015-09-25T14:46:37.019-07:002015-09-25T14:46:37.019-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02800498551915640710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post-44688904076637023922015-09-25T13:35:58.570-07:002015-09-25T13:35:58.570-07:00I only glanced through the monster section of the ...I only glanced through the monster section of the rule book on my first read through of Dungeon World. Since then I never use "pre-made" monsters or even really use the monster builder info. My monster building focus is to give them great descriptions and a solid feel. The have as many hit points as they need, and deal as much damage as they should, in order to provide an interesting encounter. <br /><br />In addition I break away from the "lone" monster encounter that has been with us since the early days of D&D. Heroes don't adventure alone, neither do monsters in my campaign. On top of that it's usually a safe bet that the heroes are on the bad guys' home turf. I can't remember the last time the party fought a single creature in my game!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14099284889934943454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post-5099791674768637272015-09-25T10:19:08.288-07:002015-09-25T10:19:08.288-07:00@Unknown: Yeah, not sure HP was the best way to go...@Unknown: Yeah, not sure HP was the best way to go with damage and such in a PbtA game. I'd considered making a fantasy hack that is more inline with AW (and so would use Harm and static damage and such).<br /><br />Have you actually tried this out? If you're attacking, say, an orc bloodwarrior (3 HP, 0 Armor), in Dungeon World the odds of you killing it are really good (you'll deal damage on a 7+, and even a wizard has a 50% chance of konking it out). <br /><br />With this rule, a fighter would be rolling +4 (HP-10/3 is -2.3, rounded down to 2, flip it to a +2 since you're subtracting a negative, add in the fighter's +2 STR mod), which has average of 11, which means there's a good chance you'll need at LEAST two hits to take it out.<br /><br />The upside is that the monster doesn't get to attack you back, at least not automatically. But, still curious how it actually plays at the table, especially against big, tough monsters.David Guyllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16299128722345607123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1790030420507335953.post-87667983027076743012015-09-24T17:28:35.494-07:002015-09-24T17:28:35.494-07:00You're damn right screw the rules. I was inspi...You're damn right screw the rules. I was inspired by this to get rid of hit points:<br />http://book.blackstarsrise.com/part/basicmoves<br /><br />Harm Move<br />When you suffer harm the GM will describe it and tell you a how much damage was dealt. Roll+CON+armor-damage. On a 10+ you tough it out. On a 7–9, it’s not too bad, yet. Take -1 ongoing to this move until you receive medical attention or spend a few days recuperating. On a 6-, your injuries catch up to you: Take -1 ongoing to this move and you get one debility. On a 3-, it’s life-threatening: you will die if you do not get immediate assistance.<br /><br />If you also want to get rid of monsters' hit points, you need to either create a "Deal damage" move or to modify all moves that deal damage in DW. The problem is that in the rules, monsters don't have Constitution, they have HP. To get a proper CON, you need to do a little approximative math: CON = (HP-10)/3.<br /><br />Deal damage<br />When you deal damage to a monster, roll+damage-monster's (CON+armor). On a 13+, you kill it. On a 10-12, you wound it severely and take a +1 ongoing on damage against it. On a 7-9, you deal a normal blow and take +1 forward on damage against it. On a 6-, its strong hide deviates the blow and it is unharmed.<br /><br />Note that the Deal damage move is almost all in favor of the character because he has already successfully hit the monster.<br /><br />What do you think about that?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02800498551915640710noreply@blogger.com