Biggus Geekus: Demons & Devils in Dungeons & Dragons

As it says on the tin, last week over at Biggus Geekus Joe and Randy talked about demons and devils.

I missed out on most of the video, and as I was re-watching it from the start there were multiple times where I would have liked to interject had I been present, though it would have been difficult via a stream of 200-character comments, so I figured I'd do it this way.

You'll need to watch the video for full context.

Summoning Humans

Someone asked the question about why demons/devils don't summon humans. I couldn't recall any spells from 3rd Edition that let you do this at the time: the summon monster series only conjures creatures from other planes. 

I then vaguely recalled something in Planescape, that on the Outlands you could run into spell crystals or something, and sometimes these would transport you to another plane as part of a summoning spell.

So I checked 2nd Edition's Player's Handbook, and it turns out that the monster summoning series of spells can feasibly do this, as you're supposed to pull monsters from the DM's encounter tables. Not only can these feature human "monsters", but the spell even states that sometimes adventurers are summoned elsewhere by this spell.

At least in 2nd Edition I guess demons could summon humans elsewhere by spamming monster summoning spells, assuming any one of them can do this in the first place. It would take time since the results are random, and creatures summoned by the spell vanish when slain, so it might not even be useful except to torment and murder the occasional mortal.

In my own RPG I didn't give demons the ability to do this, and probably wouldn't due to in-game lore/flavor that would prohibit it. Maybe as part of an adventure or campaign hook, with random or specific people disappearing (possibly in a flash of hellfire).

Monsters Playing by the PC's Rules (And Vice Versa)

Specifically, this pertained to monsters being able to do things that the PCs just can't (ignoring obvious physical limitations, like flying without wings or a human breathing fire without magical assistance). I also recall someone commenting about creating monsters and monsters with class levels.

For the first part, I don't have an issue with monsters doing things characters can't in terms of inherent powers. In Dungeons & Delvers wizard magic is dangerous and unpredictable, but that's a mortal trying to manipulate reality, something he wasn't inherently built for. Angels, demons, dragons, and fae: any one of these could have one or more inborn abilities that it could use without fear of harm.

What I would take issue with is an NPC or monster that performs magic via a more...external procedure: if an NPC can gather certain materials, and in a certain place and at a certain time cast a spell to craft a magic item, and it's not just some one-off effect, then a PC should be able to mimic those actions and achieve the same results (or at least have a chance to).

For the second part, while I thought it interesting that you could take any monster and mash it with most any class, the entire process was often needlessly laborious, especially if you're piling on spellcaster levels. I'm perfectly fine taking a goblin, upping his hit points and attack bonus, and saying he's a fighter. Or saying that a gnoll can cast whatever spells and call him a wizard.

Kind of like how 4th Edition handled it, as opposed to 3rd Edition.

Demons in Dungeons & Delvers

Randy asked me directly about demons in Dungeons & Delvers, and why the first monster in that section was a bone devil.

In our game we grouped up things you'd normally refer to as devils, and other various malevolent entities into a "demon" section for convenience (which is what the term used to mean). This way a GM could just go there for all his nefarious needs.

In the flavor of the game, devils were intended to be fallen angels that were corrupted by one or more sins: the gluttonous and wrathful ish, the sin of greed and the slothful cherub are examples of this. Not that the hellish plane(s) would only be inhabited just by devils, though they'd be the first.

As it turns out the naming convention doesn't work, though, as the bone devil isn't based on any angel, and none of the corrupted angels are called devils. This is I think because we were sometimes converting Dungeons & Dragons monsters, and didn't want to or even think to change the names. 

In the 2nd/Revised Edition, we'll do that anyway. Make things clearer.

Succubi: Demon or Devil?

Randy asked if the succubus would be a demon or devil in Dungeons & Delvers. Here she is a demon, often encountered in the mortal realm, where she feeds on the life force of mortal creatures. A proper devil would be a lustful something or other, and that might not be something appropriate for all "audiences".

Maybe a Delver's version of Book of Vile Darkness?

In Dungeons & Dragons, I didn't mind the change from demon to devil in 4th Edition, as it did make more sense given her behavior.

Unique Demons

I think there should be unique demons: D&D has Orcus and Demogorgon, and I recall a bunch more in various Planescape books and 3rd Edition books about demons and devils. And if you want a real-world precedent, check out The Lesser Key of Solomon, which talks about seventy-two unique demons, their alleged powers, and the legions at their command.

I think someone asked if all demons should be unique, and I probably wouldn't go that far unless you're doing something like Chainsaw Man, where each devil is unique, but cannot be permanently killed (normally, at any rate).

Divine Underlings 

The question was something about whether gods could have demons/devils as underlings.

As far as I'm concerned, sure. I could see one or more gods allying with demons/devils, binding them to service via magic, or even just coercing them. You could extend this to other categories of creatures: a god of the sea might command water elementals, while a forge god just crafts his underlings. Just go with what makes sense.

Using Demons/Devils

Simply put, bad guys. They all want to inflict as much harm as possible, doing so in whatever manner is most suited to their nature and abilities and will need to be driven off, slain, or banished. This makes them easy and obvious villains for the PCs to dispatch.

How they are used varies from demon/devil to demon/devil, as some (especially demon demons) are native to the mortal realm. Some are also intended to be encountered in groups, while others typically operate alone or with lesser demons at their beck and call.

For some adventure ideas, ghouls would lurk in more remote places, venturing forth to scavenge about graveyards and ambush travelers, the latter made easier by their ability to shapechange and steal the faces of those they consume.

For a low-level party it could just involve one, but at levels 2 and up you'd need more. Around 5th-level you could do an entire dungeon with just ghouls in the vein of Aliens, with ghouls climbing about and transforming into vultures and other carrion animals to hide and get the drop on the PCs.

Fly demons on the other hand are native to Hell, and would normally need to be summoned by a fly cult or swarmlord. Here you could do a sort of temple-themed dungeon, filled with rotting corpses for the fly demons to eat (and infect the PCs), supplied by cultists eager to earn the favor of the Lord of Flies.

Fly demons start at level 3 while swarmlords are 8 (cultists and fly priests could be anywhere from 1st- to 6th), so here you'd probably want the party to be at 4th- or 5th-level to give them a sporting chance. Lemures are spirits bound to heaps of fat and flesh. They clock in at 3rd-level as well and would make a nice, thematic addition to any fly temple.

The sins of greed are 10th-level, and would likely be found in Hell. I envision it guarding or managing some sort of infernal vault. Doesn't look it, but with his ability to absorb health and redirect wounds to enemies, I think he'd do really well on his own. Even so, I should have written up some other greed-themed demons to go with him.

Might as well. Make it a free add-on, which I can then convert over to the 2nd Edition monster book.

Bargains 

I wouldn't always have devils/demons going after your soul. Too cliche and barring some very exceptional circumstances why the hell would a player bother doing that?

While I'm adamantly opposed to special snowflake backstories, that does give me an idea for a character background: a character sold his soul for one reason or another (to save someone else, or get someone else's soul out of Hell), and is trying to amass enough cash to buy it back (a stipulation of the contract).

You need to try something a player might actually go for. Doesn't even have to be something that adversely affects the player (or a known PC/NPC): maybe the demon needs something done that it cannot do, or would be far too dangerous for it to attempt.

Or maybe the demon is more than willing to "help" the PC because while it's in the mortal realm will have a chance to do something else on the side. It'll still demand some sort of payment, if for no other reason than to avoid suspicion.

Another idea is that the PCs have something the demon wants, and it's either not powerful enough to take it by force, or it is unable to for whatever reason (ie, the item must be freely given). Tried doing this in a campaign once, but no matter how dire things got the players never bit.

Krampus

We wrote an adventure featuring Krampus and categorized him as a (generic, "real-world") demon.

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